Vegan dog food

Shen2
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Joined: Sat Jan 07, 2017 2:47 pm

Re: VEGAN dog food

Post by Shen2 » Wed Feb 08, 2017 1:30 am

I spent a long time educating myself about feeding a dog a vegan diet. My first dog was on the raw prey diet and it made her sick. Her breath stank, her poops stank and she devoloped skin infections. If done correctly, your dog will flourish. Mine have. Soft, glossy coat, more energy, no more bad breath or foul smelling poo, great teeth. Becoming educated is the most important support you can give your dog if you want to switch to a vegan diet. Dont forget that vets get financial benefits for selling the brands of dog food you see displayed in their waiting area. They also have very limited training about dog nutrition. When reading reports, case studies, research and any statistics you should check for bias, check who is funding this, check why it has been published and question who the target audience is.
On a much more happier note:
A vegan dog lived to 27 years http://www.care2.com/greenliving/vegeta ... years.html
My partner and my two rescue dogs are vegan. We choose not to contribute to the suffering, violation, torture and murder of other sentient beings. Pigs are as intelligent as a 3 year old, for example. I wanted to show dog owners that there is another way. You save one life but feed countless others to that one life you saved? It does not make sense to us. Cats can be vegan, BUT they need taurine and this IS available in vegan form from veggie pets and other vegan pet food suppliers. Your choice what you feed. There are options. Our choice to not contribute to a cruel world. Our decision to show others that there is another way. If this angers/upsets you. Why?
For inspiration: PETA. The Vegan Society. The London Vegan Meetup (6,602 members and counting).

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Wander Woman
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Re: VEGAN dog food

Post by Wander Woman » Wed Feb 08, 2017 1:11 pm

1. Dogs are not herbivores/vegans. There is no science to support that they are. If you choose to feed your dog a vegan diet, you to do it because of your own sensibilities, not because they have evolved to eat that kind of diet.

2. The claim that cats can survive on a vegan diet is dangerous misinformation. Cats are obligate carnivores. Cats die when subjected to a vegan diet.

3. There are plenty of people who will argue with you about feeding their dogs a raw diet. I do not agree that a raw diet will suit every owner or every dog, however plenty of dogs do very well on a raw diet without any bad breath or stinky poo or skin issues. Usually the opposite is the case.

4. Of course vets benefit financially from the food they sell in their practices. They are running a business. This ‘argument’ has become pernicious on the internet. It is all part of the recent, bizarre demonization of vets and science. The notion that I shouldn’t take a vet’s advice because they sell pet food that may not be to my personal standards does not make sense. Vets save our pets’ lives every day using the biological, scientific knowledge that they studied many years to achieve. They apply that science in their practices every day. There has been some strange internet drive recently to discredit vets. Vets actually do study pet nutrition in school. True, they have a lot of other stuff to study to qualify to practice initially, so most probably do not specialize in nutrition upon qualification. However, many vets do specialize in pet nutrition. That expertise will be based upon science.

5. A discussion based around processed and/or low quality food is completely different to this thread. I absolutely agree that there is a lot of low quality dog food out there. As far as supplements go – supplements are processed. And not all supplements are safe. Many are not even proven to be scientifically effective. Some can even be dangerous. Supplements should be more highly regulated – just like medicines.

6. The article you linked is biased. It is clearly written to convince people that a vegetarian or vegan diet is a better one for humans. They are using the longevity of one dog to support their argument. They had to admit, however, that a dog’s anatomy proves that it has not evolved to be a herbivore.

7. I have absolutely no issue with you and your partner being vegans. Your dogs are not vegan. You are forcing them to be vegans because they have no choice in the matter. I think that is unethical because a vegan diet is not species appropriate for dogs.

8. I probably agree with many of your sensibilities regarding factory farming, etc. I lived a vegetarian lifestyle for many, many years. So I am not uneducated about vegetarian/vegan diets and ethics. This discussion is off-topic, however, from dogs eating a vegan diet. Further, I am familiar with peta. I (and many others) consider them an extreme group.

9. I am not angry/upset that you and your partner are vegans. I am pointing out that feeding animals who have no choice in the matter a biologically inappropriate diet is unethical. I consider your position extremist – and the position that cats can be herbivores/vegans is actually dangerous. I consider the demonization of science to be dangerous. I am not a bad guy here, so please do not try to make me out to be one by painting me as ‘angry’.

10. I find the position you’re taking to be somewhat illogical. You say that as a vegan, you do not want to take part in the violation of sentient beings. Isn’t denying a dog the right to a biologically appropriate diet a violation of that dog’s very evolution and being?

If you choose to post extreme views, and then try to convince others of those extreme views, please expect to be challenged.
"The question is not, 'Can they reason?' nor, 'Can they talk?' but rather, 'Can they suffer?'" - Jeremy Bentham

xxlynne
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Re: VEGAN dog food

Post by xxlynne » Wed Feb 08, 2017 10:53 pm

I can only say that in truth many large parts of the world where families are vegetarian due to their religion eg Hinduism & its integral belief in the Law of Karma, will not purchase, handle or have meat across their threshold and they share their diet with their pets. I have witnessed this in India and I was shocked what a 'poor diet' in western terms, pets were fed on eg Rice left overs with dhal. Admittedly some of the dogs do venture around the village and may find other food but the culture is vegetarian very few meat eaters exist; most remain on their property. They always look healthy. Dogs are very versatile. Cats I believe are carnivores; they must have pure meat/ fish. A dog can eat cats food; but cats shouldnt eat dogs food. Many prepared dogs food have vegetables peas; carrots etc in. I have witnessed dogs who live on the coast in India and eat raw fish lose their fur it really doesn't suit.

I have been vegetarian for over 45 years though for the last 10 years I have eaten a little fish very occasionally. I have always fed my dogs meat, cooked for them and my husband is a meat eater. I would in truth love to know dogs can be healthy on a meat free diet as with humans as meat production is an abysmal industry and not environmental friendly ref global warming. I have met many dogs who have been given a very well researched vegetarian diet and looked well. Manda & I met Precious's owner on Sunday and her 2 Staffies are on a vegan diet and they were in fab. health though I believe Sarah's vet was astounded when she confessed.

I was asked to comment I can only say we see fab results with dogs given a raw meat diet; as with the raw Barf diet. I happen to note meeting Sarah's dogs on Sunday as the topic had been raised. Yes we need to inform ourselves that dogs have a different dietary needs to humans. We need to listen to the science ref the foods that are harmful such as grapes; chocolate and cooked chicken bones. We need to ensure we build in variety into our dogs diet, interest, and allow our dogs to select their food to meet their needs eg choice of grasses to graze on. I am not a prescriptive person but I could not condone a practise which I intuitively believed to be harmful or understood it from a science base. I think anyone exploring a vegan / vegetarian diet for their dogs must research and study the body of knowledge available and be sensitive to the pace in which they move their dog on to a very new diet. Also to be honest with themselves if they begin to pick up any changes and detrimental affects to their dogs demeanour and general health and make sure the dog is the centre of their interest not their philosophy. They may be missing essential elements so a sincere and indepth research first and continual review from then on and be prepared to recognise your dog can not make the change or is not thriving on the new diet.

Shen2
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Re: VEGAN dog food

Post by Shen2 » Fri Feb 10, 2017 12:46 pm

What matters the most is that our dogs are healthy. They have been cleared by our vet that they are in optimum health. Views expressed are not extreme in vegans not wanting to contribute to violence suffering and death. Veganism is another option. It is not an extreme way of life to have the ability to live a lifestyle causing the least amount of harm to others. It is a very compassionate way of life. Our dogs are vegan and they are fit and healthy. No animal will die for them. We have no time for hate, anger, cruelty or violence. No time for cruel comments.

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Wander Woman
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Re: VEGAN dog food

Post by Wander Woman » Fri Feb 10, 2017 1:29 pm

Shen2, If you think my comments are cruel, you are choosing to interpret them that way. I am simply taking a position different to yours – stridently, yes, but not cruelly. My position is not extreme in the least. I have not even taken the position that I think a specific type of dog food or feeding is the ‘right way’. I have only stated that meat should be included in a dog’s healthy diet. How that meat is included is up to the owner.

You have chosen to get personal with me, when I have not attacked you personally at all. I have even agreed that there is nothing wrong with vegetarian and vegan lifestyles for humans and that those lifestyles are completely the choice of the individual. I will add here too, that for humans, vegetarian and vegan lifestyles, when done right can be a completely healthy alternative.

I do not consider vegetarian and vegan lifestyles for humans extreme in the least. I consider the imposition of a vegan lifestyle on a dog (or cat) to be extreme, since their free will is being blocked by withholding a biologically appropriate diet.

I’m glad your vet has cleared your dogs’ health. I agree, that is very important. But no doubt many vets are interested to learn that dogs fed a vegan diet are healthy in spite of it, not because of it.

It can also be argued that many people in developing countries have very poor diets; by extension, their village dogs do too. They all have food and most survive, but would they choose to eat better if they could? Many would, I think.

I never expected to change your mind (or any others who feed their dogs this way) on this forum. My intention was to present an opposing argument, for the reasons I outlined above, which hinge on the erosion of science and the adoption of practices by many people that are not founded on the principles and methods of science. Scientific conclusions change all the time. Our dogs’ anatomy will not change dramatically during our lifetimes, however.

I understand that vegans and vegetarians do not want to take part in cruel practices. I’ve already said that above. Some people seek out pet food that is responsibly sourced, with no factory farming involved in the process in order to diminish their impact on the lives of other animals. That’s another path as well.
"The question is not, 'Can they reason?' nor, 'Can they talk?' but rather, 'Can they suffer?'" - Jeremy Bentham

MandaTK
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Re: VEGAN dog food

Post by MandaTK » Fri Feb 10, 2017 4:31 pm

Shen2 - no one on the RR site has any time for hate, anger, cruelty or violence. However we ARE all entitled to our own opinions just as you are!

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Debbie(tarakisha)
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Re: VEGAN dog food

Post by Debbie(tarakisha) » Fri Feb 10, 2017 4:51 pm

I worked in a large veterinary hospital for a number of years and have seen the detrimental effects feeding an inappropriate diet to animals.

Extract from a veterinary article -

"Cats are obligate carnivores and must get vitamin A from meat sources. A diet lacking proper amounts of meat will lead to serious deficiencies and possibly death. If you are a vegetarian, you must not include your cat in that way of life or he/she will suffer. There is no compromising on this. Cats need meat"

JenG
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Re: VEGAN dog food

Post by JenG » Fri Feb 10, 2017 6:18 pm

Well this has all got a bit hot under the collar!
I think that everyone is entitled to an opinion and we musn't take it personally if someone has an alternative view. Remember that EVERYONE on this forum is a dog lover who supports a wonderful rescue and has a great deal of compassion for animals.

I think that we should all be asking our dogs to guide us on this one - they, like humans are all different and have different tastes, likes and needs. We must never put our own beliefs on them and I am sure that anyone who does feed their dog a vegan diet would change if they saw their dogs health deteriorate as a result, just as those who feed a raw diet would do the same.

pits
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Re: VEGAN dog food

Post by pits » Fri Feb 10, 2017 7:14 pm

I agree with what Jen is saying.
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RosC
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Re: VEGAN dog food

Post by RosC » Fri Feb 10, 2017 10:16 pm

Hi
I think possibly this thread may need to stop as it is not really helping anyone but in response to the reply after my last post - yes I have rescued one animal and as a VEGAN I don't appreciate being condemned for then feeding her other animals. I want her to be healthy - if you have to supplement a diet then it is NOT healthy. My conscience is clear and I do not impose my views on others and neither should you. Everyone should do what they feel is right for them - end of.

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